Posts by Cold Steel

47

Did Stephen believe he would have to wait 2000 years for a resurrection?

by Socrateswannabe in

in acts 7:59, the jews were casting stones at stephen and his last words were, "lord jesus, receive my spirit.".

the wts has contended that all of the ancients who died after jesus were in a sleep-like condition, awaiting a resurrection that eventually happened in 1918-1919 (depending upon which wt reference you are looking at).

and in fact, v. 60 says stephen "fell asleep in death".

Cold Steel

If one wants to take a fresh look at the Bible, the best thing to do is start with a fresh piece of paper. The concept of the dead sleeping is not only not biblical, it was something the first century Christians simply didn't believe. If one starts from the premise that one is resurrected a spirit, then the Adventist view of death makes a modicum of sense. But Jesus was not resurrected a spirit, and our resurrections will be after the manner of Christ's. Christ was a spirit before he came to the earth. When he was crucified, his spirit went to Paradise, the realm of the spirits, and preached to the spirits in prison.

Peter states:

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (1 Peter 3:18-20)

He also states:

For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Peter 4:6)

If the dead are sleeping, how can the gospel be preached to them in the spirit world? The great Christian scholar, Origen, stated what he had heard from those who came years before him: "After death," he says, "I think the saints go to Paradise, a place of teaching, a school of the spirits in which everything they saw on earth will be made clear to them. Those who were pure in heart will progress more rapidly, reaching the kingdom of heaven by definite steps or degrees." (Father Jean Danielou (1955) Origen. Sheed and Ward; see also (1961) From Glory to Glory, Texts from Gregory of Nyssa's Mystical Theology. Introduction by Jean Danielou. Scribners.).

Origen, the greatest scholar of the Third Century, was far closer to the actual events in the New Testament than most of the other early church fathers. And, in fact, he studiously researched the early church and its earliest scholars. In fact he was described as having one foot in the ancient church and the other in the later "early" church. To think this doctrine was changed in the Fourth Century or later just doesn't wash. And Zechariah, in beginning his last three chapters on the battle of Armageddon, writes: " The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord , which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him." (Zech. 12:1) And Paul states: " For I am in a strait between two, having a desire to depart and to be with Christ; which is far better: n evertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you." (Phil. 1:23-24) How can one "abide in the flesh" when one is simply "the flesh" and "breath" and nothing more?

Paul also writes extensively about the reality of a physical resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15. In verse 29 he argues: " Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?" Regardless of whether the Galatians were practicing a legitimate doctrine is moot; the fact that Paul was using it as evidence of the resurrection indicates that if the dead were being preached to, they would be cognizant to make a decision if someone performed the work for them. If the dead slept and were aware of nothing, why would the Galatians baptize others in behalf of them? It would have been the perfect opportunity for him to have condemned the practice and set everyone straight on the state of the dead, only he didn't. He used it as a teaching tool.

Finally, Jesus could not have been clearer about being physically resurrected. His body was gone. Later he appears to the apostles, shows them his wounds, lets them feel those wounds, then eats fish! "For a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see I have." Did the authors leave out the part where he said, "Nah, I'm just kidding. I'm really a spirit...see?"

Adventists have to practice a set standard of denial, and you guys really can't be blamed. You've been brainwashed by some of the most scripturally inept people on the planet! You think Armageddon is Ragnorak, and you deny all the scriptures in the Old and New Testaments that place it in Jerusalem. Jesus returns, but not to the Mount of Olives as the scriptures state, but somewhere else. I see people all the time asking about "Armageddon" as though it were Judgment Day, and the fate of the Saved being a restoration to the sad state Adam and Eve were in before the fall of man. No glory, no purpose, just a meaningless eternal future in a garden.

So, again, if you're going to understand the Bible you have to forget virtually everything you've been taught, read, or thought you've understood. And you should begin by throwing away your New World Translations and using any one of a number of good translations.

Just sayin'....

24

DFing and shunning causes 22-yr old to murder friend

by Scully in

so i was randomly watching a show on investigation discovery today - the show was called killer next door, and the episode was called murder without motive.. the show is a french-canadian program that has been translated into english, and this particular episode had to do with a homicide that took place in ste-croix-de-lotbiniere, near quebec city, in november 1999 of a young man named victor lemay.. the confessed murderer was his friend, andre roy, then aged 22.. in the year or so that preceded the murder, andre roy had been disfellowshipped from the jws and had, as a result, been kicked out of his parents' home.

he had no social support outside of the jws and had to start making new friends.

the psychologists on the program felt very strongly that the shunning he experienced by the jws in general, and his family in particular, contributed to increasing rage, and that his friend, victor, became a convenient outlet for his rage.

Cold Steel

Ritualistic shunning by Jehovah's Witnesses and other extreme religions is not really any different than its blood doctrine or the primitive religions that practice handling rattlesnakes, engaging in honor killing and requiring women to be covered. In each case, power and narrow exegesis rather than love and compassion, are the motivations. Christianity is not about shunning and making people miserable, but relieving their burdens and to commiserate with those whose only infraction might be disagreeing on a point of doctrine! If someone is angry and constantly trying to destroy other peoples' faith in the church, I can understand why members might want to avoid them. But families and friends who ritualistically turn their backs on people because they've been ordered to by petty local officials don't know Christian doctrine or teachings.

Whether someone associates with such is up to the person doing the shunning, not the church elders. Nowhere in scripture are elders or other overseers authorized to create enemies lists and dictate this kind of behavior. It's nothing but mind control coupled with unrighteous dominion. It not only passes dictatorial authority on to elders that they don't have in the scriptures, the verses used by the Jehovah's Witinesses to justify shunning is counsel given to individual members, not direction to local church leaders to make that sort of determination. There's also the element of free agency, because if everything is dictated and micromanaged by elders, there is no free agency. No room to show individual compassion and love.

Jehovah's Witnesses need to reexamine this entire control issue and take back the ability to be free agents unto themselves, because this is what God is all about. It's why God doesn't stop all evil, put an end to poverty, disease and keep wicked men from exploiting those they control. Just the thought of someone dictating to me whether I can associate with a good friend or my family makes my blood boil.

21

Reading the Bible Cover to Cover and Not Cherry Picking Verses Can Turn You Into an Athiest

by frankiespeakin in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3rgev6oz3w.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghbyjfwfgou.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1xuiuzvuuw.

Cold Steel

Not all "Christians" believe that the earth was created in six 24-hour days.

I'm LDS (Mormon) and no one I know of since 1830 has believed this. I'm not even sure the Jehovah's Witnesses believe it. To think that God created the Universe (stars) just so man wouldn't be in total darkness is actually a doctrine held by some. I have a good friend who's convinced the earth is the only inhabited planet in the entire universe, with its trillions of stars and billions of galaxies. The original word for "day" is very similar to our word. It can mean a 24-hour day or it can mean an era, like "back in my day!" It also can be translated "time" (as an indefinite period). It can be 24 hours or 24 million years...or pick a number.

It's an established fact, documented by the popular television series The Flintstones, which with other scientific programs like the Animal Planet's Mermaid: The Body Found, show accurately how life evolved on earth. We know dinosaurs existed with people like Fred, Wilma and the Rubbles, just as we now know the aquatic ape theory is true.

In fact, I might open a museum in an Amish community one of these days....

22

Gawd, I wish I'd have gotten my teeth fixed.... :(

by Muddy Waters in

here i am, getting old and having my teeth and fillings (literally!

) falling apart now, and barely any dental coverage.

i just feel so sad and pissed off that i didn't do more when i was a jw and actually had coverage at the time.... .

Cold Steel

Jehovah will fix our teeth in the new system (right around the corner!) So leave all our troubles and worries with him and don't think too much of ourselves than is necessary (obviously at the time, teeth weren't necessary!)

You mean Jehovah is an oral surgeon?? Won't he be too busy to fix everyone's teeth? After all, he has to rule the earth during the Millennium. Maybe he'll leave that up to the Governing Board. Or...maybe the Governing Board will become oral surgeons!

Keep the faith!! Keep spitting out your teeth as they come out...don't give in to your vanity! Jehovah's return is just around the corner!

Seriously!

(P.S. -- Spend some money and get your teeth fixed. It's never too late. I've never had dental insurance.)

33

The world WILL end, but not for religious reasons...

by Monsieur in

i've been watching a very interesting documentary regarding the state of planet earth.. in a nutshell, (scientifically/physically/factualy) earth is experiencing 'pressure' that points to one inevitable result, to correct itself (or more specifically, to correct the effects of the present human cause, in ex- pollution, global warming, resource depletion etc.)..

the last time earth 'corrected' itself, there was mass extinction.

for proof, check out the dinosaur fossil record (unless they are a hoax.).

Cold Steel

I remember when I pulled out one of my father's books as a child. It was by Albert Einstein. I could barely read then, but I began reading about the sun. Then I read something that spooked me. He said, "The sun is slowly, but surely, burning out." Even though my parents attempted by to sooth me by telling me it would be many millions of years before this happens, it still shook me. It disrupted my worldview of permanence.

Now I've become more religious and believe we're living in the last days prior to Christ's coming. Peter wrote: "Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation." (1 Peter 3:3-4)

When things begin in earnest, the religious people of the earth will see it as the work of God, who often works through natural events. Others will say that it's because of man's neglect of the earth that it's happening. Prophecy states the tribulations in the earth will fail to move many to repentence. Instead, they will "curse God and die."

The purpose of the tribulation is to assist in preparing the world for the Millennium by ridding the earth of the wicked. But there will be many good, decent, honorable unbelievers who will be spared. During the battle of Armageddon, when the Beast brings his army against Jerusalem, God will not destroy the entire army, but will leave a sixth of them. The warlord and his primary divisions, however, will be destroyed by the "brightness," or glory of the Lord's coming. In other words, no man can see God and live without the protection of the Spirit of God. The honorable men of the earth will be spared, whether atheists or agnostics. Even some Unitarians will be spared! :^)

52

Bart Ehrman: Paul Viewed Jesus Christ as an Angel.

by Emery in

in his upcomming book, "how jesus became god" bart ehrman has a new view on how paul viewed jesus.

since i am a huge bart ehrman fan i am a member of his blog site, http://ehrmanblog.org link to direct blog entry: http://ehrmanblog.org/pauls-view-of-jesus-as-an-angel-for-members/.

there he made a recent blog entry where he argues that paul viewed jesus to be an angel according to galations 4:14. .

Cold Steel

MP: From the OT who or what is a messenger of the convenant? Jesus was never called that in the NT, so your match is completely wrong. Malachi is not a name it means "messenger." The scripture your referring to is actually probably the author talking about themselves.

The reference is to Jehovah, or Christ. First, Malachi never fulfilled the prophecy.

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts. But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness. Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the Lord, as in the days of old, and as in former years. And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the Lord of hosts.

Jehovah/Jesus is the "Messenger" who comes to purify and judge the earth. Notice that it's the "Lord of hosts" who announces that he is the fulfillment. And because Jehovah is the premortal Christ (NOT the Father), he announces his intent to judge the peoples of the earth. How do we know this? Because Jehovah, throughout the Old Testament, says that he will be the judge of mankind. But Jesus not only told the Jews that he was the great "I AM" of scripture, John states, "For the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgment to the Son." (John 5:22)

In Genesis, Jehovah also is called an angel:

And he [Jacob] blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day, the Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth. (Gen. 48:15-16)

In other words, "the God which fed me" (Jehovah) is called "the Angel" or "the Messenger" who redeemed him from all evil. Jesus also fits that bill as redeemer and savior of mankind. Jacob, who had been renamed Israel by God, said, "and let my name be named on them," which was "Israelites" (also known as the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob). If Jehovah was an angel, or messenger, who was it that sent him?

The Father is the only logical answer, which means Jehovah cannot be the Father.

4

The Governing Body's Biggest Delusion: They Are CEOs Of God's Organization

by frankiespeakin in

that is a pretty big delusion, but quite natural.these company men have indulged in corporation worship to such an extent that they have blurred the lines of reality so much that they can't tell the difference between the watchtower corporation and god almighty.

they see devils and demons everywhere even in harmless children's toys.

higher education is veiwed as a tool of the enemy(satan) to trick people into doubting and leaving god's organization on earth -> the watchtower corporation.. oh and the deaf need to be warned about releasing sexual tension thru masturbation(self abuse or hand lewdness) and so god's organization/watchtower corporation has made videos warning them.. and for the kiddies's fun we have connect the dots of lots wife being turned into a pillar of salt, or solomon having a baby cut in half, to teach these very young one to listen and obey the holy corporation.. this delusion that the watchtower corporation is jehovah's earthly organization is only possible when one engages in black and white thinking and great leaps in logic such as we see in their interpetation of the faithful and discreet slave parable and the rediculous hook up of dates that keeps changing to stall for more time as the end of the world as predicted by the corporation fail to come about.. .

Cold Steel

There seems to be a great deal of resentment directed towards the Governing Body, and people continue to question its authority. Well, of course this was bound to happen. It's one thing to claim an "invisible" return of Jesus Christ, and an "invisible" and "inaudible" inspection of all the world's religions (with no followup memo), it's another thing to draw a salary and claim to be God's CEOs.

My question would be, why didn't they question these things while they were active members??

What of the Lord's law of witnesses? "In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established." Elijah called down fire in front of all the reprobate priests and the event so impressive that he ordered the deaths of 400 of them, and the people carried them out. Moses and the Lord offered the people the opportunity to SEE God for themselves, and they were too frightened. So Moses, Aaron, Joshua and seventy elders of Israel who not only SAW God, but were able to enjoy a meal in His presence. Jesus had witnesses who saw Him heal people, and Peter, James and John saw Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration.

But if anyone asks the GB about witnesses, they call their attorneys!

I tend to let people in who come door to door to share their religions, and if a couple of JWs had the guts to push their leaders as chosen of God, my response would be, "How do you know that?" Did they see an angel, have a theophany? Did Jesus appear in their midst and show them the wounds in His hands and feet? Since even the Adversary can appear as an angel of light, I would want something like a witnessed theophany before buying into a religion. But all this "invisible" stuff makes me wary.

"Hi, an invisible Jesus told me to ask you for ten thousand dollars ca$h and He promised to pay you back tenfold Himself. That means I get ten thousand dollars and YOU get a hundred thousand dollars."

How could anyone pass up an offer like that? Oh, and if you don't accept it, you won't be resurrected.

Unfortunately, most people don't get this until they're OUT. Then, many of them still think the Jehovah's Witnesses are mentioned in the Bible, but think the WTBTS is in a state of apostasy. In other words, one day Jehovah will make things right.

30

EVIDENCE that Christians fled Jerusalem after 66 CE ...?

by EdenOne in

what the ot says ... what sources of evidence do we have that account for the 'great escape' of the christians from jerusalem after cestius gallus siege of 66 ce ?

do we have any christian prespective about it?

since i concluded that all nt books were concluded before 66 ce (including revelation), what do we have in order to support the story that the jerusalem christians ran to pela ...etc....?

Cold Steel

LDS scholar Keith H. Meservy writes of the events:

At various times during his ministry, Jesus predicted the divine judgments that eventually befell Jerusalem and the Jews. During his last week of mortal life, he not only identified for his disciples the time and the kinds of problems incident to that dark day, but also the ways by which they could avoid suffering the consequences.

The Jews took their major step toward the prophesied destruction when they revolted against the Romans in A.D. 66. Merely four years later, sword, famine, and fire had leveled the city of Jerusalem; soldiers of Rome had leveled Jewish homes vacated recently by the dead and the captives; Jerusalem itself was desolate. Only forty years had passed since Jesus had predicted it. Undoubtedly, many of those who died on Jerusalem's streets had heard Jesus' warnings of disaster and his instructions on how to avoid it. ...

Many accounts of that war were written, but the only one that has survived was written by Josephus, a twenty-nine-year-old commander-in-chief of the Galilean sector, who was in an admirable position to write about it. He knew much of the thinking that had produced it and was an eye-witness to many of its events. He knew the major Jewish leaders and, after his capture, knew also the Roman commanders, Vespasian and Titus. He observed the progress of the war from within the Roman camp and kept track of its details by regular interviews with Roman and captured Jewish participants. He saw the fall of Jerusalem, the burning of its temple, and the leveling of the city. Consequently, his firsthand knowledge of that war makes his record an excellent source for studying the fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy. Especially so, since he felt that God had inspired him to understand what was happening and had preserved his life so that he could tell it.

Josephus, Divine Recorder of the War, Understood It

As the Galilean general, he faced the Romans at the city of Jotapata. When it finally fell after a forty-day siege and he surrendered, he recalled many dreams that he had recently had but had not understood. Referring to himself in the third person, he said: 'There came back into his mind those nightly dreams, in which God had foretold him the impending fate of the Jews and the destinies of the Roman sovereigns." As a priest, he knew how to interpret dreams and knew the prophecies in the scriptures. At that hour he was inspired to read their meaning." Recalling the dreadful images of his recent dreams, he offered up a silent prayer to God. "Since it pleases thee . . . who didst create the Jewish nation, to break thy work, since fortune has wholly passed to the Romans, and since thou hast made choice of my spirit to announce the things that are to come, I willingly surrender to the Romans and consent to live; but I take thee to witness that I go, not as a traitor, but as thy minister."

Josephus' interpretation of the war is so consistent with the prophecy of Jesus that it seems as though he had Jesus' prophecy in front of him as he wrote. I see no evidence, however, that this was the case. And this lack of evidence suggests that, as Josepbus said, he really was inspired to understand the meaning of the war.

Eusebius, early church historian, felt that the similarity between the prophecy and Josephus' history was so striking that it was a testimonial of Jesus' foreknowledge. "How can one fail to be amazed," he wondered, "and to admit how truly divine and surpassingly marvelous our Savior's prescience and foretelling were?" I echo his questions. To understand the prophecy, therefore, one must read Josephus' account of the fulfillment. To understand the fulfillment, one must understand the prophecy.

Today we face a similar predicament. Many religions sense a time of cleansing is coming; a time of tribulation, of woe and calamity. We see in the world today the same sort of wickedness that caused Josephus to conclude that had the Romans...

..."delayed to punish these reprobates," God would have sent an earthquake, flood, or thunderbolt to wipe them out. "For it produced a generation far more godless than the victims of [those former] visitations" (because wickedness enveloped the whole nation).

Of what good would the prophecies of Jesus and the gift of revelation and prophecy enjoyed by the apostles been, had God not intended to spare the Christians from that fate? Even before the Romans advanced on the city, Jerusalem and surrounding environs had become a dangerous place. As Meservy observes:

[Jewish robbers] plundered cities, slaughtered citizens, and forced anarchy upon the country. When the robbers opted for war against Rome, they either encouraged or forced all others to adopt the same course. Finally, at Jerusalem, long before Romans arrived, they were themselves devastating the sacred city. They were the first to burn up the grain supply, bloody the temple courts, and put the torch to sacred precincts. Their unyielding resistance to the Romans contributed to the desolation of the city. Overall, Josephus held them responsible for the destruction of their country, Jerusalem, its temple, and its people.

When Vespasian was called back to Rome to become emperor, the city languished. Completely surrounded and with limited supplies, faction fought faction within the city. People suffered starvation and were forced into cannibalism to stay alive. And when the Romans decided to take the city, Vespasian's son, Titus, now supreme commander, issued strict orders to his soldiers: the Jewish temple was not to be destroyed. Most likely he realized that despite the various factions vying for power, the temple was a unifying element. But when the fighting reached the temple, someone threw a firebrand into one of the doors and soon the building was aflame. Romans broke off to combat the flames and were joined by Jews who also wanted to save it. But Jesus' prophecy stood, and the temple fell and was subsequently razed to the ground, not one stone standing upon another.

The Christians, however, had fled to the north. Jesus had said, years earlier:

The days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side. And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation. (Luke 19:41—44.)
When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.... Let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not the that are in the countries enter there into. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. (Luke 21:20—22)

So for the Christians to have been caught flat-footed would seem to be unlikely. It also would be unlikely that the apostles, like the prophets of old, would be caught unawares.

For a detailed analysis of the war, see Meservy's article here.

52

Bart Ehrman: Paul Viewed Jesus Christ as an Angel.

by Emery in

in his upcomming book, "how jesus became god" bart ehrman has a new view on how paul viewed jesus.

since i am a huge bart ehrman fan i am a member of his blog site, http://ehrmanblog.org link to direct blog entry: http://ehrmanblog.org/pauls-view-of-jesus-as-an-angel-for-members/.

there he made a recent blog entry where he argues that paul viewed jesus to be an angel according to galations 4:14. .

Cold Steel

...

There is absolutely NOTHING in the scriptures to indicate that Jesus was an "angel" in the traditional sense of the word. The word also can refer to "sent one" or "messenger," as many translations render it. Galatians 4:14 states:

...and my trial that [is] in my flesh ye did not despise nor reject, but as a messenger of God ye did receive me -- as Christ Jesus...." (Young's Literal Translation)
And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. (KJV)
Even though my bodily condition was a test for you, you did not mock or despise me, but you received me as an angel of God, as Jesus Christ. (Ehrman's translation)

Given his translation, Ehrman believes the Galatians received him as an angel, or messenger, of God, "as Jesus Christ." And what are we to make of the word "angel" (which means "sent one" or "messenger")? To me it seems obvious that Paul was referring to himself. Remember, there was no punctuation in these ancient languages. One has to figure out what's being said, then add the punctuation.

Does it make sense to say that they received him as the angel of God, Jesus Christ? Or that they received him as a messenger, or sent one, of Jesus Christ? I see no evidence whatsoever that the Galatians received him as they did Jesus Christ. (Or, as he would have it, "an angel of God, even Jesus Christ.") Even Ehrman wouldn't go that far and admits the verse is "a bit obtuse." So he's willing to go out on a limb and create a new doctrine that isn't anywhere taught in either the Old or New Testaments!

But let him have it his own way. A third interpretation he doesn't mention is that the Galatians received Paul as Jesus Christ. But, again, it doesn't make sense contextually. Why would they receive him as Christ, or as they received Christ? It only makes sense that they received him as a messenger of God, even as they did Jesus Christ. As Ehrman puts it, "I had always simply read the verse to say that the Galatians had received Paul in his infirm state the way they would have received an angelic visitor, or even Christ himself."

But what's all this he makes of angels and angelic visitors. If one views the verse in Young's Literal Translation: "...and my trial that [is] in my flesh ye did not despise nor reject, but as a messenger of God ye did receive me -- as Christ Jesus...."

Malachi writes of Christ when he says: " Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord , whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts. But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap...." (Malachi 3:1-2)

Another scholar notes of Jesus: "He is the Jehovah of the Old Testament, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is the Son of God, the Messiah, the Creator. He is our Advocate with the Father. He is our Exemplar. He is often called the Good Shepherd or the Great Judge. He is sometimes referred to as our King, or as the King of Kings; as the Lamb of God; as the Light of the World; as the Lawgiver; or as the Mediator. Sometimes he is called the Messenger of the Covenant, or the Rock of our Salvation; the Chief Cornerstone; the Son of Man; the Anointed One, the Deliverer, or the Man of Sorrows; or the Only Begotten of the Father."

Opinions will inevitably vary. Some believe Jesus was simply Michael the Archangel made flesh. Others believe he is Yahweh, Jehovah, made flesh. The debate will go on, but one thing's for certain. It's far from being settled by Bart Ehrman.

------------------
Background: Evangelical Don Closson writes:

Bart Ehrman is a product of evangelicalism's center. Educated at Moody Bible Institute and Wheaton College, he knows how conservative Christians think because he used to be one. His recent book Misquoting Jesus has been called "one of the unlikeliest bestsellers" of the year, and with it he has managed to bring to the public's attention the obscure world of New Testament textual criticism.

Having professed faith in Christ while in high school, Ehrman went off to college with a simple trust in the New Testament text, a trust that included verbal, plenary inspiration. In other words, he believed that God had inspired and preserved every word of the Bible. By the time Ehrman began doing graduate work at Princeton, he was having serious reservations about the text and its source. He now considers himself an agnostic and writes books that question most of what his fellow classmates at Moody and Wheaton believe.